went to the local boat launch today.......

[bajaneil]

Hey fellas,

I could no longer wait to hear what my 25 outlaw sounded like. So I towed it to the local launch (without the prop) and backed it in the water and loward the outdrive in. Then started the engine. Sounded great by the way. Let it run for about 4 minutes, temp got up to about 140 and the alarm began to alert.

Does the boat have to be moving or someway forceing the water into the inlets? or will the pump draw the water up?

What did I do wrong? why was the alarm going off? Is it possible damage could have been done at that temp?

It did smoke alot and smelled funny like it was hot?

Also it was impressively loud with the stock muffler tips. Is it a major difference in the sound and noise level with the straight tips?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Neil

[TeamBajaMarine]

Neil,
AT least you got your boat wet, I went to my marina today and left in disgust. There are 2 racks of high & dry winter boats still in my way. I hate my friggen marina and this was I get for 7 years of loyalty (stuffed in the last passible space in the warehouse) Maybe by May 1st I will be able to sell it, then again maybe not. It will be amusing owning 2 boats at the same time, the wife can drive the 25OL while I drive the 30OL.

Anyways, enough about my shitty day. The alarm was going off because something is not right, exactly I cannot tell you unless I was there. However 4 minutes is awful short amount of time for the engine to get up to operating temp. I will guess something like the thermostat. Was there water coming out of the tips? If there was I suspect a bad themostat.

[bajaneil]

Thanks for responding Blake,

There was no water coming out of the tips. So I was wondering if the water needs to be forced in to prime the waterpump? Because just sitting there, there was no water coming out of the tips?

Thanks,

Neil

[missouri]

So I was wondering if the water needs to be forced in to prime the waterpump?No.
No water from tips could be blocked line..
Another likely possilility is the pump impellar..

[bajaneil]

The boat is brand spanking new. Could it still be impeller?

[ckmansell]

SeaPump! I assume when you say new you do not mean zero hours. If so then my guess it was not prep'd right. Other wise, SEA PUMP!

[Baja340SF]

Not to mention that 140 is not hot! As far as damage to the motor from running it hot you have no issues if it only got in the 140 range. My first look would be at the impeller..........if you were getting no water out the tips........its a good chance there was no water going in:rolleyes .
If its a new boat i would let the dealer worry about it!:tiphat

Good luck!

[saleen367]

Neil,

Call your dealer in the AM, tell him the problem and that you are bringing it in. Remind him that this should have been checked before delivery. Thats part of the setup fee you pay included with the price of your boat. Regardless, its a warranty issue.

I ran my 25 OL in the driveway last fall while winterizing it and in no time at all had water from the tips spewing all over my garage door.

Before you go all ape on him, remember one thing.

The impeller will not draw water if the winterizing system (Seawater draining system) is still pressurized. Check on the engine where the winterizing pump valve is. There are two green pegs (indicators) that come out to indicate if its pressurized or not. If they are sticking out, pull the manual release valve and release the pressure. The indicators will go back in and the engine is ready to run. Without doing this, it will not draw any water.

Let us know

Jeff

[bajaneil]

your right curt, not zero hours.

what is sea pump? i assume the water pump?

it never left the trailer, could it have been the angle or the fact that it wasn't in far enough?

Later,

Neil

[pancepance]

You'll save yourself a ton of effort by getting muffs for the drive. Then you can test to your hearts content and you won't be on a launch ramp. You'll also be able to specifically see if water is coming out of anywhere (tips or from the bottom of the drive) sometimes at idle not much water comes out the tips but will always come out the bottom of the drive. Four minutes sounds short for a big block to get up to overheat temp. I don't think the alarms have any sensors for a blocked cooling line.
Interesting...

[bajaneil]

Jeff,

I went out and checked as soon as I read your post.

No luck, pulled the pin and nothing. So for the heck of it I used the hand pump, opened the valves and a very orange fluid drained out.

I am assuming this is the antifreeze or other winterizing fluid the dealer used. So I guess no water made it in if the antifreeze didn't flush out? What do you think?

The dealer idea is great, I just wish it was a more practical option. My dealer (closest) is 5 hours away.

Thanks,

Neil

[saleen367]

Bummer Neil ... sounds like an impeller.

Good luck. Maybe they will meet you halfway seeing that this happened without any water time at all.

Still sucks!

[ckmansell]

I think you have your answer to your problem. As for what a sea pump is, it is what others are referring to as the impeller. Actually the correct name for it is "raw water pump" but is most commonly known as a "sea pump." In the old days the there was no actual separate component and the impeller was located in the outdrive itself. For this reason some still refer to this as an "impeller" but we are all talking about the same thing.

Do not confuse this pump with the water pump bolted onto the front of the engine. This is a separate component operated by the belt and it looks similar to a power steering pump. It is located down toward the bottom.

They are a wear out part and very fragile. you should replace this every year. Cheap insurance.;) Even under ideal circumstances you will not get over 150 to 200 hours out of it.

Here is a link that might give you some visual help to understand what we are talking about.

Raw Water Pump (http://pub47.ezboard.com/fteambajamarinefrm27.showMessage?topicID=147.topic)

[25OutLaw]

Neil,
Is there any chance that you sucked up sand/muck from the bottom of the ramp? While the boat is on the trailer, remove the hose leading into the raw water pump and inspect for any debris. Also check the hose leading out of the raw water pump. Never do this while in the water as you can sink the boat!
Were the two small green indicators up on the winterize system? I've seen solenoids freeze-up in the winterize position (little green button down) which will not allow raw water into the block.
The alarm will also sound if the drive lubricant reservoir is low.
Good luck.
Steve

[25OutLaw]

Also you said it smelled funny like it was running hot.
If you were not getting water out of the exhaust then what you may have been smelling was the rubber coupling heating up between the exhaust manifolds and the exhaust tips. Check this and make sure it is still soft and pliable and hasn't hardened up. (unlikely given the short time you had it running)

[bottomless pit]

If you have the 496 mag you have a pump that pumps water out of the exchanger.BY HAND!
Their is a relief valve you need to lift "Has a Little Round ring on it." or you will not get water out of your exhaust tips, you need to lift up on that ring by the {blue cover straiter valve} where you apply the hand pump. when you lift the ring you may hear the sound of AIR. Even if you dont hear air you have to lift this valve (BEFORE YOU START THE MOTOR)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
START THE BOAT IT MAY TAKE 45 SECONDS BEFORE YOU HAVE WATER COMING OUT OF THE TIPS.
But I have no idea which engines you have.
PIT

[bryan275]

Pit, you beat me to the punch. That is probably the problem. Both the 496 and HO have closed cooling and if the pressure is not released from the system water will not pass the exchanger. I also believe that the 496's now have brass impellers on the sea pump instead of the "just a matter of time until failure" rubber ones. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Bryan

[bajaneil]

I pulled the release valve and didn't hear the typical "air releasing sound" but that could have been it. I then duct taped the low water pickup holes and borrowed earmuffs from a friend and within about 20 seconds water came out of the tips like crazy.

As for the alarm my only guess would be that the exhaust was overheating even though the engine wasn't?

One other question on the port side just under the gas cap there are two holes. One is the vent for the gas i'm told but know one seems to know what the other is for?? Someone said a drain for the glove box? seems like a big hole for that alone, however water did come out of it on my boat?


Thanks for all the help fellas,

Neil

[saleen367]

Glad to hear things checked out Neil.:dancinbanana

In answering your question about the second hole:
Bilge Pump, (500 gph): Automatic

One in the cabin and one in the engine compartment.

[bajaneil]

No kidding Jeff? Theres an auto bilge in the cabin?

Ill be damn. Is that where the water in the glove box goes?

Neil

[davesoutlaw]

As far as the alarm goes ther is a water pressure sensor on the sea pump if the sensor does not detect enough water pressure it will sound the alarm

[bajaneil]

Is it possible that damage was done in the 4 to 5 minutes the boat ran with no water entering the pump?

Neil

[ckmansell]

Yes. But only to the sea pump which is a wear out part anyway. I would have it changed or change it yourself before your first outing. Those things can be damaged in as little as 10-15 seconds of running dry. Your looking at about $90 for the entire kit which includes housing, gaskets, bolts and impeller if you do it yourself. A shop will do it for about an hour labor. Here in MO marine shop labor is about $92.50 an hour. OUCH!

[progolferiii]

Does'nt the sea pump just dump water into the bilge if you don't pull the pressure release? I'm pretty sure it does because i've done it more than once.>:

[saleen367]

Is that where the water in the glove box goes?

I would assume there is a small tube that runs to the forward bilge. Never seen it, but it makes sense.

[ckmansell]

How do you guys end up with water in your glove box?

[bottomless pit]

If you got water out of your tips , You are good to go!!!
But you can check your self by removing the (two) blue Plastic thread in caps on the sea pump. But again, Forget all that and Go Boating. You are in good shape.
PIT

[bryan275]

How do you guys end up with water in your glove box?

EXTREME BOATING! :biggrin

Somehow, somedays, I can end up with water just about anywhere on the boat!

[bajaneil]

Hello all,

I've had a chance to get out and really run my 25 outlaw the last two days and must say it exceeds my expectations by far.

It is truly unreal how this boat handles the waves. Everything seems fine exept one thing. When I drive the boat, and this occurs at all speeds, the boat tends to lean to the port side. It as if I have a 600 pound passenger waying that side down. It is quite uncomfortable to drive like this, it takes the waves sideways and lands sideways and I'm alway have to hang on hard to the wheel.

If the wheel is let go it of course heads in that direction. Before driving the boat I sent the prop to darin. Could the prop be grabbing too damn much and throwing the boat port?

Or is it something else? Is there an answer besides trim tabs?

Please help.

Thanks,

Neil

[pwam1]

If it were me, I would RUN, not walk the boat right back to the dealer and have them check it out. Have them run it with you present and show them what it is doing.
Somethling is not right here.
My 25 O/L doesn't lay down to either side, even with two batteies on starboard side.

[missouri]

Talk to sieze n ticket or look at his "listing" thread in the complaint dept...

[hp500]

Hey Neil
Sorry to hear about your 600 lb gremlin. I aways thought gremlin's where about 5 to 6 lb. Take a look at your trim tabs and make sure that one is not lower than the other. Some times the trim tab is not set right with the gage. If the trim tabs are the same I would take it back and have the dealer go over the hole boat with you. Just so you know what is going on.

[hp500]

Neil
It would be a good idea to take the boat back to the dealer so he can go over ever little thing on the boat with you. It's called sea trails. I know you have had a lot of trouble with your new boat but it's been little stuff. I maybe wrong but I think your new to boating, and need someone to go over all the little stuff that comes up with boating. If you ever need any help with any thing just Email and I will call you and try to walk you threw it.

[bajaneil]

What about the fact that I had the prop labbed? Could that be the problem?

And what will the dealer say about the labbed prop?

Thanks,

Neil

[saleen367]

Neil,

I don't see how that prop would have anything to do with your list. If it makes you feel any better, borrow another 23 Mirage + and try it before hand. But I'm sure you will get the same results. :huh

Call your dealer ASAP, tell them the problem, explain that you are returning it and want to water test it with a mechanic so they understand the issue. I know its a pain, but get it done before the summer is at hand. :(

Keep us posted.

[bajaneil]

Baja thinks I should have my 25 outlaw prop to a left hand rotation.

Any thoughts on this one way or the other?

[saleen367]

Sounds like Baja is trying to fix it with a prop change vs. doing it right.

I would tell them you want it corrected without a rotation change. It's obviously something they should be concerned with.

Tell them its a safety concern when driving. That should raise some eyebrows.

[Seize n Ticket]

I was wondering if your alarm went off due to your boat being on a launch ramp and the sensors for the drive lube were detecting that it was low due to the angle. Just a thought for future reference. If you're getting water out of the tips now you should be fine; however, each time you start the boat you might want to check and make sure you have good flow out the exhaust...as Curt said these will wear out and leave you stranded if not careful...I've been there.
As for your list, we had one on our boat and it required Baja to adjust the drive, which was out of specifications (allowed it to tuck to far down) as well as so minor work to the bottom of the boat. Baja told me that took 1/16" out of the hook on the port side and added 1/8" to the hook on the starboard side. Hope this helps and good luck!

[bajaneil]

Thanks for the info seize and everyone.

A few other questions for anyone who can help.

1. On the port side of the boat there are two openings next to each other, the first is the gas vent, does anyone have any clue as to what the other opening is for? No one seems to know, and the first time I backed my boat in to the launch water came out.

2. I am trying to rule out water in the boat as a possible cause for the list. When I look under the engine hatch there are the two beams that the engine is mounted to. A drain in the middle of the back seat. But no openings for water on the outside of the beams behind the back seat. My question is how far up the boat do those beams go? and for example the drains in the outside corners of the back of the cockpit in front of the back seat on the floor would be on the outside of the beams. How does that water get to the back of the boat?

I am trying to rule out everything.

Thank you all very much,

Neil

[saleen367]

1. On the port side of the boat there are two openings next to each other, the first is the gas vent, does anyone have any clue as to what the other opening is for? No one seems to know, and the first time I backed my boat in to the launch water came out.

Neil,
I thought we cleared that up on page 1 of this thread? ... Forward bilge pump drain.

Have you asked your dealer about this yet?? I know its a trip for you and you want to eliminate the obvious, but I have never heard of a list being caused by water in the forward bilge. Not saying that it can't happen, but if you have seen water coming from that bilge drain, the pump is obviously working. Unfortunately it doesn't have a switch, so you can't check it manually.

[bajaneil]

hey Jeff,

I know you mentioned that and the dealer said he didn't know what it was for, nor does any of the outlaw owners I know. Hope I didn't affend you I just thought I throw the question out again because no one else seems to know and everyone finds it hard to believe because, why the heck would they put it up under where it can't be reached for repair etc? why doesn't all the water go to the back of the boat? and how would water get to under there?

Do you know anything about the beams and the fact that there are no drain holes on the outside of them coming from the front.

Thanks,

Neil

[saleen367]

Hey Neil,
just trying to help out ...

That info I got is straight from the Baja web site. It didn't specifically say that was what that hole is for, but I have to believe it is. Here is where a bona fide owners manual would be helpful. That generic one we get is best used for starting a fire.
I believe it was added as standard equipment from 02 and on. I don't know where the pump is located other than what it says in the Spec of the Baja site. My guess is it is accessible somewhat so it can be replaced or repaired.

As far as the "beams", I think you're referring to the stringers.

There are drain holes in the very back near the transom on mine that allow everything to drain into the bilge. I think there may be more, but I haven't looked for so long I can't be sure.
I can't speak for yours.

Are you thinking that water is getting trapped on the outside of the stringers and not draining out? If so, I find it hard to believe that will cause your list. If that was the case, I think it would be quite noticeable just sitting at the dock as well.
Water is 8 lb/gal. It would take a lot of water to offset your weight at starboard plus cause the list that you are speaking of.
Neil, the biggest question I have for you is this: Does the boat sit with a list at the dock or when floating? If so, you have problems. If not, its a drive problem or perhaps a hook in the hull that needs to be removed by Baja.
Secondly, check your trim tabs. Even though the indicator shows they are up, sometimes they are not, or one is not. Make sure they are where the indicators say they are.

Maybe someone else disagrees?

[25OutLaw]

Jeff, I agree with you.
The opening below the gas vent is for the forward bilge pump which shouldn't come on very often. If your forward bilge comes on, you've probably got a lot of water in the boat. Water can enter through bow cleats, running lights and the horn or if it is kept on a trailer, and the bow is not raised up enough, water will fill the forward bilge area.
I think I read somewhere on here that it can be accessed from the step leading into the cabin on 25OL's. I don't expect to have to replace mine, but I would like to know how to access it if anyone knows...
Also, if one wanted to run their engine while on a trailer, couldn't you just connect a garden hose to the flush-out fitting on the starboard side of the engine compartment or would that bypass the impeller and burn it out?

[bajaneil]

Jeff and Steve,

You guys are right. It is a forward bilge and access is gained through the step going into the cabin.

Spoke to baja today and they feel it is either a hook or to much torque and the answer to that would be to change the prop to a left hand rotation.

So when Group Iberville, a baja dealer in canada, which is closer than my dealer, gets caught up from the spring rush, I will bring it to them and have it done. No other answers, baja will not provide me with a new boat, and loaner, nothing. They claim it can and will be fixed.

Neil

[saleen367]

Good luck Neil,

Hope all works out for you. Make sure they check that the drive was installed properly.
If it was tweeked just a small amount it could cause your drive to push the boat like this.

[bajaneil]

Thanks alot Jeff,

I'm sure it will all work out. The boat is awesome, looks, ride, everything. I am very happy, just don't expect things like this when you purchase new. But it could always be worse.

Thanks,

Neil